Chintan Panchal, Founding Partner, RPCK
Chintan is a Founding Partner at RPCK and head of the firm’s New York office where he focuses on corporate and finance transactions, with an emphasis on impact finance, private investment funds, and family offices.
As a corporate advisor, entrepreneur, and sustainability professional, Chintan brings a unique perspective to his practice, counseling private equity, foundation, family office and growth company clients on corporate merger & acquisition, finance, and dispute resolution matters.
AUTOMATED EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:01] You're listening to Scaling Up Services where we speak with entrepreneurs authors business experts and thought leaders to give you the knowledge and insights you need to scale your service based business faster and easier. And now here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.
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[00:00:57] Welcome, everyone. This is Scaling Up Services, I’m Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host and our guest today is Chintan Panchal and he is founding partner of a very specialized law firm focused on Impact Investing RPCK. We're gonna talk a little bit about what's going on in the business community in general right now. We're in the middle of well, actually, you're probably still in the beginning of Covid 19 kind of response, but we're looking at a lot of uncertainty, a lot of questions around how is this going to play out? How is it going to impact business in general, how is going to impact the markets and such? And are going to have a little conversation on what people can expect and particularly how the investing world is going to be impacted by this or at least respond to it and how some of the differences might be.
[00:01:38] Hopefully some conversations that will give some insights to leaders who are listening to this program helped make some decisions about where they're going to go with their companies, about strategy, about what to expect, but what to prepare for.
[00:01:49] So it'll be interesting and very timely conversation. Looking forward to it. And I'm curious to to learn as well on that. So with that Chintan. Welcome to the program.
[00:01:58] Thank you. It's great to be here with you. And it's especially crazy tag.
[00:02:02] Yes. Yes, it is. And I know you're recording from your car. I'm in my bedroom in Fort Lee, New Jersey. We're all quarantining and shelter in place. So I know it's important to note I'm not actually driving right now. Your shelter in GA. Yes, it's it's crazy times.
[00:02:24] And I know that everyone is dealing with personal situations and, you know, kind of the impact on their families and situation and communities. So I know it's a stressful, hard time, but I do appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation and talk a little bit about really what we're going through, what we might expect and what we need to put on our strategic plans here, decisions we need to make. Well, why don't we start with just a little bit understanding about your background, how you kind of work with your clients, the kind of clients you work with, and not to get into the dynamics that you're seeing.
[00:02:53] Absolutely. Okay. So my background so I'm a lawyer by kind of background, but I'm an entrepreneur, which is kind of how you and I know each other and how we we've connected. I started this law firm, RPK Rasco punchable, a little over 10 years ago. And I started it to focus on providing guidance, advice, skill, structuring, a lot of such things that lawyers do, but a bit more than what traditional lawyers are thought of doing. And to really focus on that type of work, which, you know, a whole host of individuals and organizations were generally focused on making the world a better place. Right. However, they defined that themselves. Right. But what we looked for are people who are very intentional in terms of what they do and how they go about doing it. And we're there as one of, you know, many different kind of folks within this kind of overall impact investing social enterprise, Shirai, ESG. You know, I should all we can talk about all of those kind of alphabet soup. But generally speaking, I think there's got to be intentional, multiple bottom line focused folks. And, you know, we're part of the infrastructure that helps people conceptualize and effectuate these types of transactions. And so it's steelwork. At the end of the day. But it's kind of institution building. It's field building. It's it's working with incredible people, kind of that's kind of the context.
[00:04:14] You know, when you break it down, we're we're a law firm. We're a team of lawyers that that, you know, are helping people kind of navigate their way through these types of multiple bottom line transactions. And that right now is a really, really interesting time.
[00:04:29] We're seeing, you know, we're seeing our kind of impact and intentional kind of clients go in one direction. And we're seeing our traditional private equity clients. I mean, a kind of people who think less about impact in terms of how they go about doing what they do, but go in a bit of a different direction. So we're kind of at this really interesting kind of getting in the fork in the road, I think
[00:04:50] Yeah.
[00:04:50] Well, give me a sense of kind of the history of this, because I think impact investing triple bottom line, you know, these terms are somewhat new, but they've been around for a little while. I mean, what's been your kind of organs? What's your take on the trajectory? Like when when this has become kind of a thing. And where is it going? Like how how is this a kind of a niche part of the market? Is it becoming a much more mainstream approach? How are the dynamics playing out in terms of kind of the world of impact investing as it relates to investing?
[00:05:20] Oh, sure, sure. I'll tell you a story. So when I when I started this firm and we we first started working kind of in the impact investing space. We came back. Investors did kind of dominant or the most common conversation I would have would be, you know, a variation of the following.
[00:05:35] Two things. One. What is that like? What is impacted? You look, what are you talking about? Right. And then the second is, isn't that just philanthropy?
[00:05:43] Right. Well, you know, you know, people just given away their money and they're just calling it slightly different. And that was, you know, every conversation you got to talk to the party, you go talking to, you know, people in a business, you know, meeting in a boardroom, you know, left, right and center was kind of this idea that, you know, they that came from this kind of traditional paradigm. Right. Where historically. Right
[00:06:04] If you cared about some thing, some set of issues, some topics. Right. Kind of whether it be kind of the environment or animals or child welfare or, you know, whatever it is that it really was. You got your passionate tradition carried on was, you know, you do your job right. You do your work, whatever that is. You sell your products and you make as much money as you possibly can. And then you give some of that away. Or if you're a widow, you know, if you like some people, you're going to spend the second half of your life giving all of it away. Right.
[00:06:33] But nevertheless, it was this kind of left pocket, right pocket kind of mentality. And that's kind of, you know, historically the way it's been. And, you know, around 2007 is when this idea kind of started really coming out to the scene. Now, of course, there have always been mission driven organizations. Right. And Patagonia is a, you know, 30 year old company or something like that. Right. There's there's been community development, financial institutions, EDF eyes that have been doing really kind of mission led, mission oriented work in local communities. Right. And there have been people kind of very, very nucci kind of businesses and organizations that have been doing kind of mission led investing and lending type of work. But as far as kind of the mainstream goes and the world that we see now, right where you have impact product and ESG is kind of on the lips of all financial advisors. And you have, you know, the likes of BlackRock and they in capital and Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley and Citi. And, you know, every major financial institution has an impact platform and an impact product base. And, you know, and everyone's zio an impact investor these days. Right. And that phenomenon that you know, that where it's really become me in stream and it's been something that, you know, everyone is aware of and talking about or at least hearing about that, I would say is at most three years old. Right. And within the last two to three years is really when it started becoming mainstream.
[00:07:58] And the conversation has evolved from what is this? And isn't it just philanthropy to say maybe about five years ago, it was kind of like, well, you know, there've been people that have been doing this right for a long time and then there's all these new entrants into the space and spin it. It's a little bit of that. It's kind of like, hold on. This is my ball. And, you know, what are you all doing here on my think that you've seen a bit of that. Right. And kind of questions of authenticity. You might have heard of this term called greenwashing. Right. Which is kind of. Is this really just a marketing initiative or is there something behind it? Right. Is this really intentional? Is it really and tech? That's been a conversation that's really kind of taking place. Maybe you could. Since the last five years and then within the last, you know, three to three years, it's really kind of now it's starting to kind of turn into a more sophisticated conversation where people understand. Right. And PR people have generally bought into this notion that you can do good while doing well. You can invest for returns and expect kind of market rate kind of risk adjusted returns. Right. You know, and also do good or be aligned with your own personal values or build a business that is in the business of solving major challenges that society faces, whether they be environmental, societal or, you know, kind of multiple or triple bottom line, if you will. I think that's less of a question mark. That's less of a debate is less of a you know, a controversial, you know, idea that you can do both.
[00:09:31] That's right.
[00:09:32] Partially because data has there is a lot of data out there now that one can look at, especially in the public markets where, you know, with respect to benchmarks and the like and anecdotal data, particularly in the private markets. And you have seen lots of very successful social enterprises, you know, take off.
[00:09:47] And it's especially in times like this where people are thinking about kind of connecting this and coming together and hoping and, you know, this notion that, you know, everyone's out there just to make a buck, you know, it might be okay a month ago, right.
[00:10:03] Where everyone again, of course, you know that company and those guys are these guys or, you know, whatever, everyone's out there just doing whatever they do to make as much money as they possibly can. That is less acceptable in times like this when everyone suffering. And this notion that we're all in this together and that. We're really here to help each other. We should be really here to help each other.
[00:10:24] That should be the driver behind what we're doing and how we're doing. Of course, we can make money and live our lives and can run our businesses and employees and all that kind of stuff.
[00:10:32] Right.
[00:10:33] But, you know, this notion that you lead from service and you lead from benefit lead to help you lead from all from out from a kind of outward looking perspective is something that has been part of the impact investing kind of outlook. You know, from the beginning and I think that is something that is very relevant in the world today.
[00:10:55] Yeah, no, absolutely. So I think to two questions that have to kind of explore.
[00:10:59] I think one one is really kind of understanding how do we really kind of define what good is. And then we talk a little bit of what's going on with Koven and how it's impacting, obviously, the financial markets. But what you think some of the implications are going to be in terms of how things go, in terms of how do we define what good is? I mean, I think, you know, conceptually, I think people understand that. Okay. Yeah, it's it's more about making money. You need to have some kind of, you know, positive impact on society and culture in your communities. But how do you actually define that and how do you measure that and how do you choose what that good is going to look like? You know, given that, I think, you know, sometimes that's a little subjective or, you know, one person's good may be not simply one person's. What is doing really good may not be someone else's version of what's being really good. Now, do you believe, you know, total is easy. Money is objective. It's dollars and cents. I can put a number on it. I can. You know, three things I can point to is this other side feels like it to get squishy. How do you deal with that from an investment point of view?
[00:11:52] Yeah. Yeah. In many ways it be. Question. Right. And I completely agree with you. Really squishy. You're saying we start from there. And so as an adviser, right, I am an investor myself, right under. So whether I had my investor hat on, whether I had my advisor hat, I'm a lawyer. The thing I can start with is that I try to meet people where they are. Right. I say, listen, I don't define impact. I don't define good. I don't affect bad. But I do care about authenticity in whatever you define it as. Right. So, Bruce, you might say I care about, you know, child welfare in the developing world. Right.
[00:12:25] Or you might say I care about kind of carbon emissions or I care about pollution in my local communities or, you know, whatever those things are. You say you care about. Right. Then we have something to work with. And then we say, all right, well, what does that mean? Well, how do we define the problem? How do we define the challenge? And then we go from there. We say, all right, well, how can our activity. Right. And you can think about your philanthropic activity. You can think about your, you know, the things that you do in your personal life. You can also think about the work that you do in your business.
[00:12:58] And you could also think about the investments that you make and how and where you choose to invest your investment capital.
[00:13:05] You have all these different tools at your disposal to help if you wish to work towards those things that you happen to care about. And this is the subset of folks that either a or saying, listen, I know in my work in the business, I develop in the company that I run in the department or the division that I look after or within this corporation, etc. I or we as a as a group or as a family, as an institutionalism, as a community, care about these things.
[00:13:30] And the other is, of course, as an investor, whether it's, you know, you know, the asset owner themselves or it's the professional manager. Right.
[00:13:37] You could be a venture capital fund manager, a private equity fund, you know, debt fund, hedge fund. You know, you could be a fiduciary of other people's capital and you could have a perspective on this. But that perspective is where we look for kind of authenticity. And and we really try to drill down into what people really mean by I care about this or that or the other thing, because I agree with you. I think there is no you know, it's a it's kind of a college philosophy debate about what is good and where is it. And, you know, is that a pretty good residency?
[00:14:11] Might be fun to think about and talk about, but concrete reality, how can we work where we actually build a business? We build an investment portfolio, how can we kind of take this thing and actually turn into something real that, you know, that starts with kind of where where somebody is?
[00:14:24] Right. So that's kind of where it starts. Now, the second piece I want to kind of mention is, you know, and I think this is the key to it is it's, you know, that a lot of people would think about this and say, all right, well, we're a business and we make widgets. Right. And that's that's that's why we're here. That's what we do. And we understand that we have to do something good. We have to be socially beneficial. And so, you know, people can think about it. Well, let's reinvest in our community or let's do this or let's every widget we sell, we'll give another one away or whatever it is. Right.
[00:14:51] That's kind of that's certainly one way of looking at it. I think that's not the most successful way of looking at it, but it's not wrong per say in my experience.
[00:15:00] There's another way of looking at it, which is to say, how can our business be an engine that drives the change or the good that we have defined and we're looking for.
[00:15:11] Right. Meaning as this business or this investment performs better in an objectively verifiable.
[00:15:20] Financial kind of, you know, standpoint from a financial standpoint. You know, if we sell more product, is that product making a positive impact in the types of things that we care about we genuinely care about? Or is it not just that thought? Right. That being intentional about that is critical. And those are the businesses that I think are best poised to be successful. Those are the investment strategies that are best placed to be both kind of risk adjusted, resilient, as well as kind of alpha creating and successful. I know that I'm not an investment adviser.
[00:15:50] That's my personal observation. As someone who kind of got involved in this community and is kind of advising people on how to build these things. Right.
[00:15:59] It's interesting.
[00:16:00] Mean, I've worked with a few a few companies that are, you know, either becau- or have, you know, either formally or informally a triple bottom line kind of philosophy. And it's it's kind of it's both more complicated because you do end up in this. Well, we have to we have to define things right. Like we are we actually need to define what is the impact we want to achieve. How do we measure this? What are the goals that we want to set? How do we put those into real kind of Mormons criteria's moms as much as we do or earnings ratios and, you know, financial performance. But it's also a wonderful opportunity because you can really start to define this stuff for yourself. You can really make some decisions. You can really explore what kind of impact you want to have. And so, yes, it is squishy. But in that squishiness, as also, you know, the the ability to really kind of define some values and create real engagement, you know, for not only your employees but all of your stakeholders, your partners or under the general, it's curious, I. Yeah, it creates a real alignment, which is. Yeah, it's the one thing I tell everyone is it's not easy.
[00:17:00] You know, honestly, dollars and cents, it's really easy. Just kind of drive all your decision making by dollars and cents. And I think that's why, you know, a lot of people get a little daunted by it. But right now, it's really don't.
[00:17:11] It's not easy. I agree with you, but it's also certainly not impossible. And it could add massive win to your sales if you get it right. All of those are true stakeholders. Right. And you know, I want to talk about something you just said. Right. Which is I'll just reiterate that. Okay. You said stakeholders. Right. And that's, I think, the key here. So I would say in the traditional kind of business or investment standpoint, you would think of this in terms of shareholders, stakeholders as a broader category of individuals, organizations.
[00:17:43] You could define the environment as as a broader stakeholder. Right. That's how you think about that. Right. So that is really the key, right.
[00:17:50] Kind of as an impact investor, you have a broader aperture that you open the lens up to a much broader kind of picture.
[00:17:59] And now all of a sudden you're thinking about your being intentional, about the effects of your activity, whether it be investing, whether it be kind of conducting the business, whether it be whether it be kind of reacting. In the age of Comandante's, you're thinking about the effects of each of these actions on a broader set of stakeholders. Right. So if you're thinking if you're the investor, you're the shareholder and you're, you know, you're going to be making an investment and covert action happens. Right. And this is the world we're living in right now. And you say, well, well, I got to feel. Shouldn't you just pull out? Right. And you're taking care of the shareholder. Right? That's what you're doing. There's nothing wrong with that. You know, no one's going to criticize you for that. But you're an impact investor. You might kind of take a step back and you might say, well, all right. Well, you know, there is just crazy situation going on in the world right now. And, you know, let's set to make his investment.
[00:18:50] And I do need to obviously and certainly take care of the shareholder. But there are a whole bunch of older people on the list that I'm thinking about. And that might include, you know, the the company itself that one is thinking about investing in. That might include the employees of that company, that might include the folks who are the the customers or the or the clients or the people who rely on the services, the goods and services that that company creates. That might be the vendors and the joint venture partners and the broader context in the community around that particular enterprise for the same group of people that you would have been intentional about as going into the investment.
[00:19:30] Perhaps you will also be intentional about as you're thinking about whether to make investments or whether to pull from the investment priorities. These are the types of decisions that we're seeing and conversations that we're having in the space right now.
[00:19:42] You know, it's interesting that not to get too philosophical about it, but I think there's that there is a big shift, at least in the people that I see that I have worked with that have, you know, either involved with or running companies that are more kind of impact investing, you know, socially conscious. Generally, what I find is they're much more kind of systems thinkers around how how what they do impacts things.
[00:20:04] They're much better at understanding kind of the secondary tertiary effects of the decisions they make, the investments they make, the choices they're making and understanding that they operate inside of a larger kind of ecosystem, whether it be, you know, a biological or.
[00:20:19] Natural or social community, like there is a series of events that will happen, a series of consequences, and they tend to be much better about understanding, you know, how how the kind of not only the long term will will play out, but how to hold up the sort of series of dominoes will fall. Given what they're doing and ultimately, you know, I find there because they have that kind of longer term, more systemic kind of approach to things or ultimately more successful in the sense of building, you know, sort of quote-unquote value, whether it be a monetary or social unity value. But it does take a real kind of shift in mindset. I find I don't know what your experience.
[00:20:58] I couldn't agree with you more. I think that's exactly right. And I think that in order to do this well and to do it consistently and successfully, I think you have to have that perspective on it. I think that not only is it a great observation, but I think it's kind of it's almost prescriptive, right. It's kind of almost by definition. Right. And if you're an index investor, you know, almost definitionally or you're a social entrepreneur, you know, you're leading a running as, you know, a socially conscious or socially minded enterprise. Right. You know, you can think of, you know, a mega global corporation or you could think of a two person kind of, you know, mom and pop business. You could think of an individual with a four or one K portfolio, or you could think of a massive police officer, a big well-known kind of investment fund. All of these folks are among all of those folks.
[00:21:45] You have to be I think and I love the way you put it. Right. A systems thinker.
[00:21:50] Are you thinking about a broader set of systems within which these businesses, these investments, these these decisions, they live.
[00:21:59] Right, and they coexist.
[00:22:02] And that is kind of the point. It's kind of, you know.
[00:22:04] Well, the fact is, it's the reality. You could choose not to because you're still going to be impacted by.
[00:22:13] Close your eyes to the fact that, you know, there is a society within which we all live. There's an environment that gets affected. That doesn't mean that it's not affected. You know, we have, you know, a we have the amount of carbon in the air right now that we do it for a reason. Right. We have the ocean because of. There's lots of choices out clogging up the oceans. Exactly. That is because I think a lot of people were really kind of looking or thinking about it.
[00:22:37] But now I think like, you know, and I think that a whole bunch of other people recognize that they're successful businesses and successful investments in building the solutions to some of these problems.
[00:22:49] So let's let's talk about sort of the Koven situation. And, you know, we're you know, we're recording this at the end of March, you know, and I think for all the all all kinds of predictions is that we're kind of at the beginning of the curve here and we will see things getting worse over the coming weeks and months from a kind of health and a social point of view.
[00:23:04] But I think it's an interesting kind of case or situation where you see I think you literally see this playing out in the decisions of people trying to make I mean, not to get too political on it, but, you know, I've I've seen things in the news where there's this discussion of, well, you know, should we shelter in place or should we just go around?
[00:23:21] Should we should be not to stimulate the economy? Like how much are we willing to kind of trade off? Is the problem is the solution worse than the problem? You know, I think there's a lot of this kind of discussion going on, or at least, you know, people are grappling with these kind of issues. Right. And even the situation we're in with, you know, not enough mask and certain pieces and, you know, not investing in certain public, you know, public institutions to be able to help with these things. I mean, there's there's a lot of this stuff. I mean, how as an investor and what you you're seeing in terms of the companies that you've worked with, either on, you know, the more traditional financially kind of structure versus the impact surgery. What's the difference in terms of response, in terms of thinking, the strategic kind of processing? What have you kind of noticed as as we're faced with this literally world pandemic year in terms of community? How is it affecting the business?
[00:24:11] Yeah. So I think of writing it in a calamity, right? In a crisis. Right. You see. And generally speaking, you see kind of two categories of folks. Right. Some people that kind of run away from the situation. Some people that run towards it. It's always the case.
[00:24:26] There's kind of almost a human nature thing. But, you know, and I think you're actually right. Right. There's a there's a health.
[00:24:33] There is, you know, that kind of the driver here. And the key you know, the core consideration, of course, is the health piece of it.
[00:24:39] I you know, I'm certainly not qualified to speak to any of that. But there is a directly related kind of economic calamity that we're that we're we're seeing as well. Right. And so we have lots of we're working with lots of different folks who are in that proverbial running towards the problem. That's right. The conversations I'm having are around, you know, impact in practice with our clients. And a lot of the stuff that we're doing is in getting kind of thoughtful and creative around providing emergency bridge loan facilities and thinking about how to shave a deal, how to re-imagine in a transaction. So that it can go forward, a transaction can go forward as kind of his binary code and thought of you can detect button or proceed, right. Neither one of those. Is that still the right decision in the context of this type of situation? I D. The people that you know and the organizations institutions that we we get to work with. You know, it's it's really amazing, right. Because people are kind of buckling down and moving in and you know, and there is significant uncertainty and there are a lot of fever and there's a lot of concern kind of in the space.
[00:25:53] And there is kind of this systems based focus and and this kind of broader perspective that brings people to the problem with potential solutions, or at least the willingness to kind of look at and think about and create. I'm very encouraged by that. In terms what I'm saying, it's still early days. This isn't this isn't meant to be a critique. Right, of anyone else. Right. Everyone makes their own decisions in terms of what they think is best for them selves and other people if they can report to or can have, you know, the forces that they're under and therefore each, you know.
[00:26:26] Yeah, exactly. Everyone makes their own right and those decisions are right. But I would say that there's an interesting difference. I think we're seeing the same thing on the other side when it comes to, you know, we're making investments in a great economy. I think we're seeing that this is the first time that the kind of impact space has really been tested. I do. It impacts community. As we know, it wasn't around in 2008.
[00:26:48] And so this is kind of the first major test of that community. Let's see what happens. It's hard to tell right now, but I definitely see some encouraging signs.
[00:26:56] And how do you see this playing? I mean, right now, we're kind of in this seizing up process. Right. Like everyone is hoarding cash. Everyone is kind of figuring out how to kind of protect themselves. You know, it's a fairly individualistic defensive posture most people are taking. What's the process for this kind of loosening up for things to start moving again? I don't think anyone is really, you know, what the timeline is going to be, but at least what the process might be and what we need to happen practically or psychologically for folks to kind of get there.
[00:27:25] Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's definitely it's a confidence kind of measure. Right. It's trust. It's confidence. It's there's an emotional component to this. Right. This feeling. Right. That's driving this kind of people, I think, understandably don't trust what the future holds. Right.
[00:27:43] They don't they don't have security in respect of what. And so, therefore, I think it's a very natural response.
[00:27:49] And I think the government certainly has a massive role to play here in helping kind of bring trust and stability back into the system. But the government, I think, can't do it alone.
[00:28:00] I think to go over it has to be the major player, you know, and that's what we're seeing across the world now with these stimulus packages.
[00:28:09] But eventually in soon, private participants have to start following along.
[00:28:15] Right. Somebody is going to take that leap of faith. And some critical mass of people need to take that leap of faith that that will allow cap from will start flowing again. Right. And the flow of capital, that is the key here. Right. It's been there and gives everyone a check. Right. And every corporation that check and put that in their bank account, their the fire gets up. I think we're not going to have the kickstart effect that we're looking for. Right.
[00:28:37] You know, and so this is an instance in which, you know, I think about public private partnerships.
[00:28:44] I think about blended finance between jaw dropping actors. Right. Who have capital to give away. And they're there to literally give a wake capital. That is the point of philanthropic institution. Right. Foundation, for example.
[00:28:57] You know, and this is a time, I think, for thoughtful, coordinated kind of activity. Right. And between government actors, between the private sector, between the philanthropic sector and the impact world, and that's generally considered blended finance or the kind of this notion that these three sectors that typically kind of are siloed off, you know, come together and respective achieving some set of tax rate was kind of like the biggest impact you can possibly imagine.
[00:29:26] Right. Kind saving the world economy and society. Right. Kind of. As we know, it kind of sounds odd to be thinking about things in these kind of massively drastic terms.
[00:29:37] But generally speaking, I think that there is a need and a call for kind of blended finance on a massive scale, that it's targeted at certain elements in certain kind of sectors and and really focused on bringing that trust back into the market space whereby, you know, people are starting to look at work together and then build and do as opposed to kind of hoard and wait and see, you know, the fund.
[00:30:05] Do you see? You know, obviously horrible, horrible global tragedy that we're going through. Do you see this having an impact in terms of, you know, as we come out of this, some people start of thinking about the investments they're making, about how we're suffering these things. Do you anticipate. Shift here in terms of attitudes, approaches, strategies that people use.
[00:30:24] Now that we've been through a global crisis, that Italy has literally affected everyone.
[00:30:29] The silver lining, if you will. It kind of brings Zelig. You know what? You know, I'm an entrepreneur, so I am kind of by definition and optimistic.
[00:30:37] But I'm also a lawyer.
[00:30:41] So, yeah, I think that the idea that this is there, that this is a thing that one can align the things that they care about.
[00:30:55] Right. And, you know, we're all in some search for meaning.
[00:30:58] I don't see it as a kind of human human thing. Right. To kind of be on the search for meaning.
[00:31:03] And a lot of people find that expression of that in their family and in their philanthropy and then in these kind of very personal ways.
[00:31:10] I think that this notion that people will be exposed to or can become exposed, this idea that you can further find that alignment in your work and in your investing and in these other spheres of your life. I think that is that is an opportunity. Right. This notion that it can be. But do I think we're going to see a paradigm shift?
[00:31:30] Honestly, that I had a bit of a pessimist on 2008 when it was kind of you know, I think that people are going to desperately kind of waiting and hoping for things to get back to normal so that thinking about get back to normal. Yeah. Yeah. You know, a normal is kind of what it was. I obviously. Will things change? Absolutely. Right. Will the world emerge from this different. Absolutely. In good and bad ways, probably.
[00:31:54] I think the impact investing space isn't certainly isn't going to be shrinking. It's not going anywhere.
[00:31:57] Right now, I think you're placing it has been it was, you know, until this kind of happened, a couple weeks fell exploding onto the scene. I think it will continue. I think it will.
[00:32:07] Lots of people in that community will find ways to lead in the context of this this challenge, and it will continue to grow. And I think that that will happen.
[00:32:18] Yeah, I think you're right. I'll be I'll be curious, obviously. I think everyone's looking forward to being through the eye of the storm in terms of, you know, what we're going through right now. But I'll be curious to see what does kind of change what discussions happen. You know, for how long and what what sticks. You know, I'm sure there's going to be an initial push or initial active discussion around some of these things. But the question is, how long how long is the stay around, you know, how long do we stick with it? But to be cautious. Yeah. Yeah. Likewise, people want to find out more about you, about the work that you do about the organization was the best way to get that information.
[00:32:48] Yeah. So our Web site probably is the best RPK dot com. I'm on Twitter chintan 3 9 7.
[00:32:53] Although I haven't been tweeting a ton lately, I'm just seeing lots of.
[00:32:59] Exactly. But yeah, I appreciate ICOM.
[00:33:01] I mean, we know I try to kind of talk and share our experiences and kind of what we see and think is working in know and in many ways as I can to get the word out.
[00:33:14] So, you know, I'll be following you even more closely first and then also trying to have conversations with as many kind of great leaders as possible who are really looking at it.
[00:33:26] Yeah, I think that's the important part is keep the discussions going. I'll make sure that the information is in the show notes so people can can go through and get to the website and get you on Twitter. But it's been a pleasure. Great conversation. Obviously, the interesting, challenging, sort of tragic times. It's a, you know, in many ways. But, you know, things where we have these conversations and we do start to think about like, well, what is what does this mean? What does it tell us? Where do we want to go for it? And I think, you know, the entrepeneurs and the leaders and the business committee are going to be huge deciding factor in terms of what comes out of this. So I encourage everyone listening to really think about it. And I really appreciate your time and your insights and your knowledge.
[00:34:02] Thank you, Piers. Well, it's been a pleasure.
[00:34:05] You've been listening to Scaling up Services with Business Coach, Bruce Eckfeldt. To find a full list of podcast episodes, download the tools and worksheets and access other great content, visit the website at scalingupservices.com and don’t forget to sign up for the free newsletter at scalingupservices.com/newsletter.